Half Life 2

[sutrix]

"Art" is what I and fatwoul are talking about--it's an individual preference.

No it's not (man I feel like Im' a parrot). What's about individual preferences is taste (obviously).

(I'm not going to argue that this collective opinion is also based upon a lot of individual opinions--a lot of individual "arts" in other words).

Wooow ! Now opinion = art ? That's the boldest statement this month.
And if you're "not going to argue that a collective opinion is based upon a lot of individual opinions", just don't. But anyway, it's precisely because a collective opinion is made of a large quantity of individual opinions that it has nothing to do with an individual opinion.
Now, some people succeed in transforming the artistic values of a civilization individually. Bach did, Da Vinci did, Picasso or Duchamp did (among others). But they did not do so by stating their point of view but by creating new artistic forms that were later deemed art by society. And it's obviously something which is not in the reach of every suburban jackass.

What I call art doesn't necessarily have to be what society or "scholars" or anybody else calls art. And vice-versa.

It doesn't if you want to live alone without communicating (which is pretty much where we're going as a society, a bunch of isolated self obsessed people talking to themselves), but it does if you intend to be part of a group. Meaning is not to be modeled as one sees fit ; sometimes one has to go with the existing meaning of a word, wether one likes it or not.

Yeah, okay, call it "taste".

Yeah, I think opinion is what makes art. We're thinking human beings who make decisions. Tell me, if a bunch of monkeys were asked to judge which artist is better--DaVinci or Michaelangelo--would you get a coherent answer? I don't really think so. Take it a step further. Put a bunch of cockroaches on the judging panel instead of monkeys. Now what?

How about DaVinci painting his Mona Lisa and showing it (him showing it or his agent, if they had one in those days) first to the above panel of roaches/monkeys/dandelions/pitcher plants? I bet Mona wouldn't exist today. It's because he showed the painting to a bunch of people who knew how to spread the word and who did indeed see something in the painting that they felt was above the mediocre that the painting gained the fame it did.


What is considered "great art" is considered so because a great many bunch of folks--human beings--got together and judged the stuff and a) liked it, b) decided to call it art.

To add to what I just said, then, I think influential collective opinion is what defines art.

The thing, *o*, is you're talking from the artist's point of view, while I'm talking from the audience's point of view. I agree that those artists you mentioned did not create art by stating their point of view, but by... creating art.

But what made their work "art" is the judgement and opinion of a lot of people. That's what I'm trying to say.

[*o*]

...

[sutrix]

Your initial statement was that Art is about individual opinions, and now you're basically saying what I've been saying from the start, which is that, precisely, it's about some sort of consensus (and individual opinions are obviously of no importance in a consensus ; what's important are the points over which people have succeeded to agree in the process of coming to that consensus.) Of course Art is linked to taste. But I think it's important to draw a line between what we like and what's Art (and at times the two things are the same.)
Basically, and I'm only going to repeat myself one more time, to understand one's bad tastes is important in the molding of one's critical mind.

Yeah, it's better if we just call it quits; beause just like your stand, I'm going to keep on stating that Art is about individual opinions and that "great and recognized art" is a collective decision based upon a lot of individual opinions (and I do believe that individual opinion does count in a consensus--at least one person has to decide something, the others in the group may just follow his decision like a monkey, but that one guy has to make a call). There is logic in what you're saying... but I think there is some in what I'm saying too. Or maybe I'm really just saying what you're saying but I'm saying it wrong. I could be; saying things wrong isn't new to me.

And not being sarcastic or anything, but what does my opinion matter, anyway? Especially since you believe that Art is not based upon individual opinion?

[*o*]

...

[sutrix]

Art is about individual opinions

For the tenth time, no, it's not.
You can keep repeating it as many times as you want, it won't get the least bit true. Art is always about collective aesthetics standards (and I think it's important that you notice I always spell Art with a capital "a").

and I do believe that individual opinion does count in a consensus--at least one person has to decide something, the others in the group may just follow his decision like a monkey, but that one guy has to make a call).

A consensus is not about one guy making a call, it's about lots of guys coming to an agreement by each making a compromise about their original position. Although a consensus might reflect an individual opinion, it is not one, and I think it's quite clear that individual opinions are transcended by a consensus.

And not being sarcastic or anything, but what does my opinion matter, anyway? Especially since you believe that Art is not based upon individual opinion?

Because it saddens me that you could be so wrong without realizing it.

I'm not saying anything, cause I'm just gonna repeat what I've said to this point and then you'll repeat what you've said upto this point... and we'll go on and on and on and on and on.

So, let's just let it rest, shall we? I may be wrong about art (or Art, if you will). Maybe I'll change my opinion in the future. Maybe I'll realize just how wrong I am.

Peace?

Let's talk about something else... like Half Life 2, for example. The guy who's playing the game... did you finish it? Details, please?

[Ellimist]

...

[sutrix]

Re: let's see if I can make this clearer...

Art is about individual opinions

1. No. It is not. Whether or not someone likes a piece of art is about individual opinions. Not art itself.

Art is always about collective aesthetics standards

2. I believe you mentioned culturally/socially before. Yes. You are correct in this instance. You made it rather clear and logical in your last post, but, I just wanted to point out this dichotomy.



The conflict here is that 1 and 2 are different things. Apples and oranges, if you like. sutrix and *o* basically agree on this aspect:

"great and recognized art" is a collective decision based upon a lot of individual opinions

sutrix's "great and recognized art" = *o*'s Art.

sutrix's inividual opinion art is whether or not someone likes a piece of art.

Correct me if I am wrong, please.


(by the way, forget everything I said before this post, I don't know what the fuck I was talking about)

Yeah, exactly. I think my definition of art itself is different that *o*'s. And maybe my definition is wrong. My "art" isn't "Art". I think we (*o* and I) both agree on what "Art" is (you got it right about how my "great and recognized art" is *o*'s "Art"), but we differ on what "art" is. Or maybe, *o* accepts the existence of "Art", but the very concept of "art" is illogical and bogus and inexistent for him. And again, who knows, he may be right.

[*o*]

Re: let's see if I can make this clearer...

...

[sutrix]

Re: let's see if I can make this clearer...

I didn't say anything stupid in this post.

[sutrix]

Half Life 2 has a demo.

The file is 751 Megs big, but I guess folks with broadband can get it. It's the first level of the game and the 6th level of the game. I checked it out; it's a blast.

Of course, this applies only to those who haven't yet bought the game, like me.

The link: click here

[over_come]

I don't know if this is appropriate for this thread, but I just got half life 2. I didn't think my computer was that kick ass and it runs fine, hell, the game put most of the video settings on High by itself.

[Ellimist]

...

[over_come]

It makes me feel kind of special. Like I've got some kick ass computer and didn't even know it.

[sutrix]

It makes me feel kind of special. Like I've got some kick ass computer and didn't even know it.

It's the same with the demo. And those folks even included the gravity gun in the demo! I thought they'd leave that one out of it, because that's the one star attraction of the game above the others.

I don't even use anything else when playing. Just grab a toothed-disc and let 'er rip.

[Victus]

kinda disappointed with the ending...