the kids

[calhol]

I promise that I used the search, so please no one get upset if you've already gone through all this. Just tell me and I'll be happy to delete this. Is it just me or is a major theme child abuse? Does it mean anything or is it just a theme?
First Johnny and his mom. Raymond. The crazy lady and the dog. And the whole Minotaur thing. (locking your wife's child in a giant maze?) Daisy's wrists? And the one that really stood out to me was Chad's teacher coming to the house because of the pictures. If you already went through this, I couldn't find it anywhere. [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]

[jessthinksthis]

i asked about the dog thing too. that part of the book really bothered me.i dont have an answer for you i just wanted to say i have the same questions. no one answered but to say search....i hate that.

[Dana]

nothing to add, just wanted to agree. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[delirium]

Yeah, there were some theories regarding abuse - Francis Glances submitted a post on the Jacob and Esau thread which went some way to exploring this theory, particularly the possibility of Zamapno/Pelafina's relationsip having been abusive in some form.

[Agrimorfee]

I think that there should be a general rule of "netiquette" around here that if people are asking about a topic that has been covered here, don't respond with a mere "check the search function"--be helpful and give some clue as to keywords (and if you don't know the keywords don't say anything) or at least give a thumbnail idea of what has been said previously. My 2 cents.

[girl2]

okee, some keywords for some of the stuff you're talking about--

johnnie (the pekinese killer's name)
pekinese (the dog that was killed)
jacob and esau (the title of the abuse thread)
daisy scratches (umm, duh, you've probably already tried that)
abuse (kay, double duh on that one)

i think usually, if you've searched for something and you still can't find it, it is probably something that has been touched upon in a few posts, but never been talked about outright. or, the search function is being mean and playing tricks on you! (it does that to me sometimes)

i'm working on a theory (that's probably been said here before) that the truth of the house is much uglier than we thought. i don't really have it organized out right now, so feel free to punch holes through it before i waste time: i think the figurative 'navy' is representative of a man who raped pelafina and subsequently got her pregnant. what is the ultimate minotaur, the ultimate beast child, but a reminder of the man who raped you and a reminder of the horror of your rape? women who have been abused in childhood sometimes will, in adulthood, seek out men who mimic their abusers. karen was supposedly scarred for life by being raped and thrown in a well--how could navy mimic such horrible abuse? i think the scratches on daisy's wrists are from itching and picking at herself-- some sexually abused children, maybe lacking physical scars, will express their confusion and pain through self-inflicting wounds. why else would karen be so worried about leaving daisy alone with scissors, unless she had seen self-destructive behavior in the past? uh, i'm still angling in where zampano fits in this, and who the actual author of the first edition of the navidson record (which i believe had a horrible ending, before being altered by johnny to mimic a book that is almost the OPPOSITE of the navidson record, in all respects), so i guess that i've still got a lot of loopholes to plug up.

*shrug* just thought this was relevant to your concerns, since basically the whole theory revolves around sexual abuse.

[Lantern]

Girl2 -- that is a very interesting theory... could this connect (in an odd way) to the Z=N theory? If Z. is writing an account of his own life... N represents the parts of his life that he is repressing. His repression and guilt haunt (or hunt) him, so he isolates himself and attempts to expunge himself of his guilt by writing the Record.

I'm probably wrong, but I do agree that HoL is a lot darker than it appears, and that the happy ending (as has been discussed elsewhere) does seem to ring somewhat false.

[Agrimorfee]

Girl2, I think that your theory has a good start to it. For a moment there, I thought the idea of Navidson as a rapist was a bit flimsy, but then I started thinking about his ragged determination to explore the house, against his better judgment. (There goes that house as womb thing again!) You wonder why (the fictional) Camille Paglia didn't have more to say to Karen when she was interviewed in "What others Have Said..." !(Paglia is a renowned feminsit writer, is she not? correct my inaccuracy if so)

[girl2]

i see zampano playing a part in my theory as either:

a. pelafina's father
b. pelafina's lover
c. an employee at whalestoe that fell in love with pelafina (remember the letters that went out by 'secure route'?)
d. an employee at whalestoe that raped pelafina in the night (as told to us in pelafina's 'secret encoded' letter)
e. pelafina's rapist
f. someone aware of/who knew of pelafina's rape
g. a fellow inmate at whalestoe who either fell in love with/developed some sort of odd literary bond with pelafina
h. pelafina's husband's twin brother (except for the fact that i don't think the ages quite match up...)


so yes, if you believe that pelafina was raped by zampano, then it would coincide quite nicely with the z=n theory. but since i'm not sure which of these crazy possiblities there is actually evidence for in the novel, i stick to hypothesizing and theorizing. *sigh*

*runs into a wall*

[Ahlaylla]

girl 2, I was reading your last entry in this thread, and I was curious about something. you talked about Pelafina being raped, as told to us in the coded letter? Have I missed something big? Have you all figured out the secret of the coded letter or what? Anyways, just thought I'd ask that.

[girl2]

heh, none of us have decoded the mysterious nonsensical letter that starts on page 633 (?? i think...). the coded letter i was referring to was the one explained by pelafina's mother in one letter, and then sent in another after that-- she encoded a message by making the first letter of every word her real message.

you can read the entire decoded letter here: decoded letter thread

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: girl2 ]

[Ahlaylla]

Thanks for clearing that up.