Chronology / Sidebar

[bigm141414]

It is interesting that the gutter is parallel with the story but never intersects the story. Never is there a mention of sam or hailey in the gutter nor is there a mention of any gutter events in the story. Parallel yet outside. It reinforces the idea the they are "allways sixteen" and outside of time's domain.



Edit: I take back what I said. There are connections, it just takes a little digging.

[elmago]

But there are some references in the langugage, as has been pointed out already. And there are those lists of toxic gases and such mentioned in the Vietnam/WWI part. Shurely this is not coincidential. Hailey and Sam may be fast, but thet are touched by History.

[modiFIed]

Yes - they are around. I was just looking at an early section and noticed, on H/78:

"Turn out, turn loose and turn on."

The sidebar on that page is at June 1969 - the Summer of Love, which exemplified in the culture Timothy Leary's urging that everyone "turn on, tune in, drop out".

[bigm141414]

S1

Story:
- Go ahead Lieutenant General.
AAAAAAAAAAAA Take it all.

History Gutter:
Nov 22 1863
...
Jubal Early

The Point:
Jubal A. Early was a Confederate army officer who (guess what) attained the rank of Lieutenant General on (guess when) May 31, 1864. Can we assume that Sam is a deserter of the CSA?

Although, heartbreak seems to have some ideas as well.

[bigm141414]

And why not a little more:

H1:

Story:
Everyone loves the Dream but I kill it.
Atlas Mountain Cedars gush over me

History Gutter:
Nov 22 1963
...
-a giant cedar

The Point:
From The US Senate history page:

More than any of his predecessors, Harris shaped the modern Senate chaplaincy. Members appreciated the poetic quality of his prayers. On learning of President John F. Kennedy's assassination, Harris went immediately to the Senate Chamber. He later recalled, "The place was in an uproar. Senate leaders Mike Mansfield and Everett Dirksen asked me to offer a prayer. I called upon the senators to rise for a minute of silence, partly because of the gravity of the tragedy, but partly to give me a minute more time to think of something to say."

Borrowing from the poet Edwin Markham, he said, "This sudden, almost unbelievable, news has stunned our minds and hearts as we gaze at a vacant place against the sky, as the President of the Republic, like a giant cedar green with boughs, goes down with a great shout upon the hills, and leaves a lonesome place against the sky."

That's one quote down many and more to go.

[elmago]

And by pinning that quote down we may start to see that the Gutter and the Story are far more connected that we assume right now.

[ManiKatt]

Yes, MZD did say that this book is twice as complex as HOL even though it's only half as long.

BigM perhaps you should start a quotations thread....

[fearful_syzygy]

Why? As long as they're in the 'history gutter', what's wrong with this thread? 'Specially now that it appears to be stickied.

[elmago]

Mmmmm. Actually, why would Nik stick the thread?

I agree with fearful, this is the right place for quotations

[bigm141414]

Page: S2

The Story:
Surrendering nothing. But April does.

The History Gutter:
Sept 27 1864
…
General Order 9

The point:
On April 9, 1865 Lee issued general order 9, a surrender to the North ending the Civil War.


Mani: don't worry I have started a list of the quotes I have been able to find from the first few pages from Sam's side. When the list becomes more complete I may post it or the most relevant parts.

[sutrix]

That sticky thing is just MZD acting via nikhsub to make us look harder into the chronology.

There's another chronology which deserves to be stickied, in any case. But I'm not a young woman so I'll shut up.

[julie]

I'm not a young woman.

(Comepletely off-topic, but for the longest time I thought you were......and Manikatt too...... )

[sutrix]

Well... ahem, uh, I guess I need to post something in Bush Wins pronto to rectify that.

[modiFIed]

I'm not a young woman

Yes you are.

...so I'll shut up.

No, you won't.


(Don't ever change, you little hoyden.)

Anyway, here's an interesting one: H/284 - "Chief Justices rehnquished." Sidebar at May 29 2005. Rehnquist actually died in September, and he adjourned the Court for the last time in June 2005.

[Ellimist]

Well... the dates aren't exact, and they seem to usually be within a few months to the actual events.

Maybe MZD is saying that Rehnquist died long before he actually died?

[modiFIed]

Ha - yeah, he was out for cancer treatment by Nov. 2004, but just wouldn't leave his post.

An interesting phenomenon, really. It seems the more important your job in the government, the longer you can be away from it without any consequence.

That is one thing to note, if we haven't already - that the item alluded to in the text is often very close to the sidebar date for the page it's on, but not exactly. It was G@rp who pointed out MZD's birth date, where I believe it wasn't exact either.

Some industrious math type may want to look into the date shifts vis-a-vis textual reference versus sidebar (and sidebar versus actual, for that matter), to look for some pattern. As folks always say, there are "no mistakes" in MZD's works.

[xenosss]

Maybe there is no death. Only....

The fact that Hailey's first word is "Samsara" and Sam's is "Haloes" may be significant here.

The Wikipedia article on Samsara makes me agree that MZD is definitely repeatedly saying there is no death. From the article: "Samsara is derived from 'to flow together,' to go or pass through states, to wander. Mostly a great revolving door between life and death and a new life reincarnated cycle of life." (emphasis mine)

Hm, did MZD take cues from Wikipedia, or did he edit the wiki to reflect the book?

[fearful_syzygy]

So you're in with the 'in' crowd now, eh xenosss? Welcome.

[elmago]

Welcome, xenosss.

Following bigm141414 format:

Page: S4

The Story:
-- Tranquility & Civil Authority,

The History Gutter:
June 7 1866
…
--Peace, order.

The point:
Andrew Johnson's August 20, 1866 proclamation that "the said insurrection is at an end, and that peace, order, and tranquility, and civil authority now exist in and throughout the whole United States of America."
(via Modern History Sourcebook)

Page: S5

The Story:
-- Git gone Scalwag,

The History Gutter:
April 9 1867
…
Scalawags & satraps.

The point:
The term scalawag was a derogatory term used in the Reconstruction era in the South of the United States to describe white Southerners who supported the Republican party and often but not always the effort to extend civil rights to African Americans. It made up a group of citizens who were not sympathetic to former leaders of the Confederacy in their effort to reclaim political power.
(via Wikipedia)

* * *
So far, It seems easier to find Sam's side's quotes than Hailey, wonder why?

[po-m]

Haha welcome to our nightmare, xenosss. Soon you will understand our pain.

[bigm141414]

elmago, I also noticed that during my research into the quotes. I think it is because the Hailey quotes are so vague and from a much closer time than Sam's. When I search for a quote I type in the stuff in the History Gutter and then the year it could have been said in. Since there aren't too many well known quotes from the 1800's it stands to reason they are easier to find.

On Hailey's side, it becomes rather difficult as Google won't return the right results more often than not.

[elmago]

Just for the sake of completion I should point out this modified post, which goes on to show that the relation between the History Gutter and the Story goes beyond the first pages.

This is the first case of relation most of us noticed. It seems it was easier to relate to the History Gutter during both WW periods plus the Vietnam War. Could it be perhaps because we are more accquainted with this periods of History?

Also, as I noted in another thread (but this one seems like a better place: Why is it that all the Superbowls are in the Gutter, but no Soccer World Cups?

[poco locomotive]

This is an "American Novel" so no Soccer World Cups. Though Soccer is getting more popular, it is still not nearly as popular as Football is in the US.

[bigm141414]

This is the first case of relation most of us noticed. It seems it was easier to relate to the History Gutter during both WW periods plus the Vietnam War. Could it be perhaps because we are more accquainted with this periods of History?

Well, almost everybody in the US who has passed high school has studied those eras to death. I know I did.

[fearful_syzygy]

This is an "American Novel" so no Soccer World Cups. Though Soccer is getting more popular, it is still not nearly as popular as Football is in the US.

Yeah, perhaps this will garner some support in da hood.

The amusing thing about the video (apart from the fact that he's quite clearly limping at the end), is that none of those keepy-uppy manoeuvres of theirs is particularly impressive. I mean, it's not exactly like watching Brazil, is it? Or these guys, even.

Edit: Um, manoeuvre isn't quite the right word, is it? Pedoeuvre?

[poco locomotive]

That was entertaining. In my neck of woods, soccer is a very expensive sport to get your kids into. Those "club teams" charge about $1000/6 months. There is no way kids in the hood are getting to play. It's a white upper middle class sport here (with Latinos-on-scholarships thrown in to raise the win ratio).

In any case, I think of baseball as the ultimate American sport, and I enjoyed those references to the World Series in the history gutters.

[bigm141414]

I believe that there is a correlation between the dates and the attitude of Sam and Hailey in their respective stories, and also how they portray the other.

Thoughts, insults, japes?

[poco locomotive]

Oh, I definitely agree, especially in the early pages of each. I think as time goes by (hard to define that exactly) they become more similar, perhaps even changing over to the other's original outlook.

[sutrix]

Americans play baseball because they're not smart enough to understand cricket.

[poco locomotive]

humorous.


...what the hell is cricket?