Food for thought

[Xiria]

I'm very new here and just finished reading the book last night. I'm very confused and I could use some help. Here is what I took from the book.

At first I speculated that Old man Z and Tom were the same person, but if that were true, then wouldn't have there been mention of Z having no hands and whatnot? Tom's hands were stripped of their flesh when the House swallowed him, correct? Or was that just an illusion of the House?
It seems plausable that Pelafina and Daisy could be the same person, but it just doesn't make sense. Johnny goes in search of Pelafina's ghost at Whalestoe. In his narrative, he describes the place as being surrounded by an 8 foot high fence. The fence has No Tresspassing signs everywhere. On page 550 we see a page from the book that never made it into the book, where it states that Karen still ownes the house, but she had an 8 foot fence built around it with No Tresspassing signs on it. This could just be coincidence.
I'm afraid I've confused myself and lost my point. Anyone have any insight that might help me out? [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Xiria ]

[ManiKatt]

YOu get a diamond for discovering the best hallway of the day.

This sems to tie Karen and Pelfina even stronger. It is Karen who smiles and also Pelfina. Perhaps the house was Karen/Pelfina's madhouse? And these letters are her description of the house insident, her recording in opposition to Navidson's. I'm going off now to compare dates in the letters to dates in the Navidson record.

ManiKatt

[VelcrowMistress]

here's a idea for you... it ws just introduced to me a few days ago... there is some speculation that Pelafina actually wrote the entire book, old man Z and all. i'm relizing that the story of the baby might actually be Johnny, and while P. was in the Whalestoe she created the life of her dear dead child. Pg 628 read the capital letters in an X form "DEAR DEAD" ok, read the letter from Ms. P on Pg 609... ok, turn to page 97... uh huh.... more? Pg 615, 2nd paragraph, starting at "destroyed" take the first letter of each word untill the word "evil?" also in one of the letters she mentions a spanish doll... Daisy happens to have a spanish doll. there are lots of codes hidden in Z's story too.
Pg 64 take the first letter of each photographer's last name. there are many things, i'm finding new ones everyday. good luck, hope i help some. if you have any questions feel free to e-mail me Velcrowmistress@aol.com

liz

[Xiria]

Wow, its going to take me some time to look through all of that. Unfortunatly, my husband has my copy of HOL with him at work at the moment. I'm going nuts waiting for him to get home so I can look it all up.

Something else I've been thinking about:
I did some research on Borges, he went blind during his lifetime from head trauma. It kinda makes you think that MZD fashioned old man Z after him. Maybe, maybe not. Just a thought.
Another thing: Old man Z's house was completey dark. If I recall, the walls were dark, or black, the windows were covered, and there were no lights. Kinda like the hallways and such in the House. If he really is Tom, or anyone else that was in the House, maybe they got so used to being trapped in the darkness, that they felt as if they needed their home to be completely void of light to feel secure. I'm losing it I think. lol
Question: Why in the world did Z keep books in his refridgerator?? I couldn't figure that out.

[VelcrowMistress]

hhhm, books in the fridge.... beats me... P. was crazy after all. btw, since you don't have the book with you, i'll translate the codes for you Pg 615 "Destroyed Endless Arrangements Re. Zealous Accomodations, Medical Prescriptions, & (And)Needless Other Wonders, However Obvious--Debilitating In Deed; You Ought Understand-- Letting Occur Such Evil?" OR "DEAR ZAMPANO, WHO DID YOU LOSE?" Pg 609 she talks of sending out the letter through one of the attendants "For all you have to do is place in your next letter a check mark in the lower right hand corner." on Pg 97 there is a check mark- in the lower right hand corner. what else did i cover? oh, yes, Pg 64 the first letter in the last name "A LONG LIST" i'm sure i missed something, but you get the idea.

[Xiria]

Ok ok, I'm confused. Are you saying that P wrote the book, including the Johnny parts? I can't figure out what you mean. The bit about the the letters is interesting though.

[BlackWidow]

This all seems to me, in my imbibed state, to imply that P wrote it all (a great and very easily, perhaps TOO easily supported theory), that Johnny is her lost son (perhaps not dead, but "lost"), Zampano is Navy or Tom or both (hence the age...has anyone added their ages together? Z could be a manifestation of the two...) and P is Karen, a concept I have supported wholeheartedly.

Thoughts? Anyone?

[Xiria]

I don't think P could be Karen. The age difference is too much I think. But, if P does in fact =Karen, then that would mean that Johnny is Chad? And if johnny is Chad then don't you think that he would remember where he lived? Johnny searched for the House for ages, it wouldn't make sense if he was Chad. Usually no one forgets where they lived, excpet for when they only lived there when they were a baby and then moved away. But Chad was old enough to be able to remember. Therefore, I don't think P=Karen. Just my thoughts.

[endorphyne]

Well, I've spent some time thinking about this. The Zampano reference in the Whalestoe Letters is rather interesting. Zampano had seven women who's names he would occasionally say when he was under emotional duress (Interesting side note: Beatrice is the name of Dante's guide through paradise). All of the names have a french origin.

Now, I could find no record of the name Pelafina, so I can only assume that it is a name created by MZD. However, "Fina" is a name. Short for "Seraphina", it is a latin name that means "fiery ones". "Pela" is french, the past tense conjugation of the word that means "to peel".

A loose connection at best.

[Xiria]

I also attempted to find the origin of Pelafina. I came up empty handed as well. The best I could do was a distorted translation of "fine peeled" or something of the sort. I was hoping it would make a reference to flowers, hence Daisy, but no luck.

[Twix]

Let me start out that I love the P=author, Johnny=dead at birth theory--it was one of the first few I'd read when I got here, and it was just... too cool for words. What can I say, I love twisted stuff like that?


________________SPOILER ALERT--LOTS OF QUOTES FROM BOOK AND VARIOUS THEORIES, ETC. NOT TO BE SEEN BY THOSE WHO HAVEN'T YET READ ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE BOOK AND/OR WISH TO FIGURE OUT THE AUTHORSHIP THEMSELVES_______________
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I'll add more darkness to these halls of discussion by quoting some parts of The Whalestoe Letters, a supplementary volume to HoL that has some extra letters in it:

First, a couple of thoughts from the guy who worked at the Whalestoe and found these extra P letters:

"Regrettably, however, Pelafina's lucidity did not necessarily coincide with my visits. Frequently, she could not even acknowledge my presence with so much as a blink. Though she wasn't there were times when she looked absolutely blind. Blind to the moment, to me, to the director, even to the walls. Her pupils suddenly blue to the whole world." (Italics, underline, color mine for emphasis)

"...her immense longing for the son I would never have the good forture to meet, or for that matter ever locate.." (Italics mine)

"...somehow she managed to make you feel as if she had invented you..." (Ditto)

P. letter, June 24, 1984, referring to wanting to make a birthday gift for Johnny:

"By some early light, I'll concoct the right tale, perfect the telling, something worthwhile and grand to be delivered later, much later, more than likely in the years to come, into your gentle little hands.
Maybe I'll even make you stand on your tippy toes to get it. Of course you won't have to if you don't want to. Eventually you won't need to stand on your tippy toes. You'll have grown to grasp it. Which is when you'll need me most anyway."

P. letter, November 6, 1984, regarding her "terrible thought":

"It stays. Woe upon woe. Not enough room fo rit all and yet there is room. It makes rooms. Rooms upon rooms upon hundreds of rooms full of indistinguishable remains." (Italics mine)

November 9, 1985

"I read you now as I write you, upon the instant, upon the word and its thought, as if they too truly might and could be one. Mine & yours." (Italics mine. I admit that "as I write you" could mean "as I write TO you," but the strange wording made me wonder whether it has a double meaning...)

As a note... on the "Zampano, who did you lose?" thing: If you look, it actually starts at "..many years destroyed..." etc, so it reads "My dear Zampano, who did you lose?" Adds a lot more sentiment to the statement, methinks.

September 18, 1986:

"Devoted beyond death, Mom." (You know the deal with the italics)

January 6, 1987:

"A mother craves her boy. Without her he is ash." (Ditto. I.E., without her JT no longer exists.. hmmmmm... [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] )

January 11, 1988:

Reads "Dear Dead" or "Dead Daed" Johnny. I like the first better, but someone else did bring up the second, and I concede if you read from bottom left-to top right, it reads Daed, which s/he (don't remember) thought was a reference to Daedulus, who got lost in his own labyrinth, and I admit it could be that. :P I like my way better though. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

March 19, 1988:

"...how can you ever understand the awful weight of living..."

[img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] Whew. I think that's enough for now.

Kimba

[Edit--:P I was so hungry from skipping lunch I messed up a sentence. Fixeded now. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] ]

[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Kimba ]

[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Kimba ]

[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Kimba ]

[euchrid]

Pelafina is also an anagram of 'final ape,' and no doubt something in Latin, just to be clever. Does this mean anything ?

Has MZD been locked up yet ? When are the men with the big net coming for me ?

[bathwater]

Check out my old post "Whats in a Name", you may have to go back past 45 days, several members poster their research of the names. [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]

[VelcrowMistress]

There is some thought that Johnny DID die. that the story of the dieing baby, and the mother who stayed awake for 3 days was really Johnny and P. and that when Johnny died, she went insane. While in the Whalestoe created this entire life for her lost child, including finding "Zampano" (who exsistes only in P's mind) which explanes how "Johnny" knew so much about "Lude's" list anmd what happened to all the girls. there is also alot of things in "Zampano's" book that coinsides with the letters to Johnny. in one letter P. talks of a spanish doll. Daisy has a spanish doll. pg. 624 "I live at the end of an interminable corridor"
also on pg. 599 "i put pink ribbons in my hair" when Kren and Navidson escape from the house a niehbor is quoted as seeing Karen holding Navy in the front yard, a pink ribbon in her hair. and "DEAR DEAD" kinda says it all, right?

[Booklad]

Hey everyone,
Here's a thought...could the name Pelafina be a combination for Pelican and Dolphin?

Just a thought... [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[joe sorbara]

re/ "P=author; Johnny=dead at birth" theory from kimba on oct 22...

the letter from P:

"January 6, 1987:

'A mother craves her boy. Without her he is ash." (...without her JT no longer exists.. hmmmmm...'

could "he is ash" be a reference to ash tree lane?

[dorain]

A thought, what if old man Z wrote the book about his life if you recal the baby was being cralted, and Z new this baby but he wanted to change the ending and the baby a.k.a. navi did not die and at the end of "navson record"
navi was being treated in the same way. it is all just a hunch,and it may not make any sence.

I am only 14 and i got the book taken away from me before i got to finish the letters
if you have any info on them PLEASE send them yo me at lavaboy654@aol.com

[dorain]

I have one more thing to add the time that navi was lost in the halls may be the three day of the babys like. Yes, the hall toime is longer but as most would say that is would have been an eternaty.

[VelcrowMistress]

Navi didn't die. he lost his right hand, the top portion of one ear, some facial skin and his left eye. also his hip had been shattered. it was replaced, but he needed a crutch. Tom however did die, he wsas sucked in to the house.

also, to joEso, is that letter in the Whalestoe letters? once i read that portion i immediatly ran for my copy of HOL, but it wasn't in there. i don't yet own the WL, but i have read it once. that is just more twards proving P.'s authorship.

[VelcrowMistress]

sorry dorian, just figured out what you were sayin.... n/m the top portion on that last post. [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] oops!

[Xenorph]

Actually, I was the one who posted that I thought Navidson was dead. I still do... It's not a notion I can easily drop. I think Johnny or Z wrote the ending without the original author's choice.

read the other post if ya want a more in depth explination, and I could still be wrong as always. But then again, what would it really mean if any of us were right?


*)

[FallingQuarters]

[Typed]
September 21, 1970

[Twix]

joEso:

Sure, I think there's a direct connection between P.'s use of the word "ash" and the naming of Ash Tree Lane (there are plenty of posts about the Ash Tree Yggrasdil on this board). Furthermore, there is a LOT more usage of the word "ash" throughout the book--I've been reading Gender Studies stuff for nearly two hours straight and so am not horribly tempted to go scouting for references at this moment, but one that immediately comes to mind is the girl that JT met at Tex's party--ASHley. I remembered noting many, many more uses of the word "ash" in weird places that seemed to tie all the different narratives together (hinting at there being one "true" author). I may post about that later, when I'm not so burned on reading. :P

Kimba

[bad_mitten]

I am less interested in this thread than I am at the fact that it somehow made it to the top without anyone posting to it....the last post (before mine) is October 24, 2001....how did this happen?

perhaps we can learn something from it.

[starblight]

"spoiler"

also on January 6, 1987

"--for anything from you, your way, your ink & letters, which are as quiet and still as all our Great Hopes On Stone Terraces, Set there first to englighten us, then define us, until finally in our own end they defy us."

[Aura]

I always thought that the biggest 'ash' reference in the book was the knowledge that the house built on top of the "ftaires" was destroyed in a volcanic eruption.

This brings up the possibility the whole house was a ghost or simply a 'portal' area - hence the stairs on the original site leading down into who knows where. When the house was destroyed the 'portal' area took on the attributes of an ash-petrified house leading to ashen hallways etc etc...

By the way, this is my first post. Hi. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Research into horror on the Net revealed the book's existence to me, and after a trip to my local library here I am.

[ November 14, 2002: Message edited by: Aura ]

[girl2]

*blinks*

star, a ghost bumped this thread to the top?

[starblight]

yep. and did it again.

[girl2]

ghosts are haunting the messageboard?

wait, i thought it was aliens!

and err, what about the lizard men!

dammit!

[Aura]

Sorry. I did try using the search function to find a thread concerning the house built over the "ftaires" but got nothing. Could someone point out one for me to read and compare?