My new obsession

[gleality]

Hi all. Finished the book tonight(Wed.); started on Mon. (unemployment is great). I've been incessently/obsessively babbling to everyone that I come across for the past 3 days about it.

Sadly, I bought the book at a B&N in Austin (where I sometimes work) the day after Mark come in and signed all the copies on hand. So I have an autographed copy, but I need him to come back because I have questions. Many questions. Although I have been reading the board for the past few hours and it seems to have helped some. Thank you all.

However I didn't find any comments concerning the cats in the book - Zampanos disappearing cats, Navidsons cat Mallory, Johnnies dead cat on the side of the highway. Anyone have any theories on the significance of cats or animals in general?

[Gertie]

I know what you mean about babbeling to everyone about how great this book is. It seems no mattter how hard you try you can never get people to understand what you are talking about and end up sounding a little crazy. I was talking to my dad about it and he said something to the effect of "You are making no sense," Like I was speaking spanglish (Spanish and English) And he didn't speak Spanish so he only got bits and pieces (No pun intended). I guess you have to read it to understand what is inside it's covers.

[karebear3982]

Glen-

That is a good point...what is up with all the cats?! (although they also mention a dog that Johnny becomes attached to). I had kinda forgotten about the cats, but I am reading it again, and last night I started wondering about the connection myself. The only thing I can think of...and this is my first thought on it, so I bet it sounds really stupid...is that cats are kind of like the "feminine" creature...and the book makes a lot of references to feminine things. Like about how the house is vaginal and all that. (To all you truly intellectual people out there, this may sound so stupid). As to why the cats die...I haven't put that together into my thought yet...but maybe somone else can add on.

[haus]

I emailed this question in for the discussion on Monday (couldn't make it, live in Alabama). Years ago, a friend of mine was talking about how he'd read that in some 'spells' the act of multilating a cat was supposed to help open a 'conduit' or whatever to the supernatural. I've asked him about it and has no recollection of telling me this. Anyone else heard anything about this, or am I just making this up without knowing it?

[wallacebcm]

To Haus:

I always find that leaving a cat alone - and simply marvelling at its beauty - opens the greatest conduits to the universe, the beyond, or whatever. I'm not implying that you disagree with me or anything - just wanted to offer up the anti-thesis to the hocus pocus, sacrifice animals to a higher power routine.

Best,

B. Wallace/author/Labyrinth of Chaos

[haus]

Not interested in any of that stuff myself, but I do remember how oddly that memory struck me when I read the bit about Lude finding all the mutilated cats, it was kind of like 'where the heck did that come from?' Again, maybe it was just something I dreamed that got mixed up in memory. I just don't think it would have been mentioned in the book if there wasn't a significance. Later on, doesn't a female Truant meets mutilate his Pekinese? I'm on my second read through right now.

[miharu]

I'm not entirely sure what's up with the animal murders, either. I did have a thought a month or so ago that seemed to explain the cat slaughter.. but forgive me, as I've forgotten it (aah.. now this is gonna bug me until I remember).
As for the scary porn star (if I'm remembering that one correctly) with the Pekinese.. you've got me. Unless, of course, there's a women are evil, false motherhood, deceptive nurturing-type motif going on. Now that I think about it, I always associated her big fake nails (minotaur claws, perhaps) with Pelfina's.. digging into Johnny's throat.

-miharu

[Felicia]

This whole cat thing has me stumped, too. And what about the claws in Zampano's room and on Johnny's back? Where did they come from? Could those have come from cats or am I just not thinking right? There's also another reference to cats in "The Whalestoe Letters", as well. It's in Pelafina's February 23, 1988 letter: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Fish must eat. Fish must dive.
Beasts must run. Beasts must die.
(Though what of the cats?) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only thing that I can possibly think of is that cats are sometimes thought of to be evil (they're more commonly associated with witches) and are mostly considered to be a "feminine" creature as someone stated above. Is this in any way implying that women are evil? And if you think about it, the house was also known to be womanly ("vaginal") and it was what caused the men (Navy, Tom, Holloway) in the house so much anguish and pain.

I dunno. I'm just throwing out shit. This book has got me seriously messed up images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

[ July 20, 2001: Message edited by: Spanish_Doll ]

[Charlie Banana]

I know what you mean about no-one understanding what you're talking about!
I've tried explaining the book to a few people and they just look at me "worryingly".
They can't understand HOW I could enjoy something that looks sooooooo complicated! Ha fools they won't laugh when I have all the answers and take over the world!!!!!!!!
Just kidding!
It would be nice to know ALL the answers but maybe that would spoil it's "charm" images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Vesper]

Can I go out on a limb here?

I will anyway.

I have an out-there theory on the porn star. She considered herself the mother to all strays, but ended up killing one {the famous Pekinese}. There were 80 {?} cats in the courtyard. The ones found slaughtered could have been victims of her. That might ruin the connection between Zampano's and Navidson's animals, but maybe not. The girl might have been the personification of the creature in the house that might have ended up causing Zampano's {un?}timely death. Kinda like what Mirharu said about the girl's fake nails and minotaur claws. Since someone {I don't remember who} mentioned that every word in HoL held meaning, when Johnny said that the girl threw the dog out with an 'almost unimaginable amount of force' that might mean that, as her true self, the girl could be an unimaginable being. Also, Johnny said that the Pekinese was a projection of himself. The girl destroyed the dog just as the existance of the creature in the house {whether it was real or just Zampano's fabrication} destroyed Johnny's life.

This leads to saying some things I just thought of now. They're farfetched, but so is most of the book.
-What if Zampano believed in the monster so much that it became real for him and anyone experiencing the Navidson Record?
-What if Zampano created the monster and the house somehow in the past and wrote about what happened to a real or fabricated family that purchased it?

I think I've written enough for now, so I'm done. . .
What does everyone think?

-Vesper, ShoGirl.

[mistressofhearts]

About Zampino making up the House, after reading the Whale letters, I have come to believe it was in fact Johny who concoated the House. There are so many references that seeem to allude to passages in the NR. I wish I could think of them now, but I lent out my copy of the boook (which I now regret), whihc I will get back in September. At least i converted somebody! images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[Vesper]

References? I haven't gotten around to finishing the Whalestoe letters yet... images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

-Vesper

[ManiKatt]

What if Johhny is the Minotaur and Zampono is his father who abondonded him like Minos? COuld Johhny have killed Zampono and forgotten it in his sub-consious, starting this obsession? After all Johhny WAS living in tha same complex after coming out of a "nuthouse"

[Twix]

First off, I really enjoyed your theory, Vesper, about the porn girl being a personification of the house's minotaur, and your secondary one about Zampano (and, if the theory is correct, most definitely Johnny) creating the minotaur/creature with their own belief. I'm not sure if either fit the book--I'll have to re-read some more parts once I get done with my second read-through, especially the porn star section. But I'd like to add my own theory on, not cats in general, but Zampano's cats, and also on chapter VI (where Hillary and Mallory--the Navidson family's husky and tabby cat, respectively--run into the hallway, and end up, apparantly magically, outside of the house).

I'd like to preface this theory by re-quoting the first portion of chapter VI, as it's kind of integral to both semi-related theories:

"[Animals] lack a symbolic identity and teh self-consciousness that goes with it. They merely act and move reflexively as they are driven by their instincts. If they pause at all, it is only a physical pause; inside they are anonymous, and even their faces have no name. They live in a world wihtout time, pulsating, as it were, in a state of dumb being... The knowledge of death is reflective and conceptual, and animals are spared it. They live and they disappear with the same thoughtlessness; a few minutes of fear, a few seconds of anguish, and it is over..." -Ernest Becker

I read this quote, and, most importantly, it's placement in HoL as a significant point to the fact that animals live only in the present (according to Ernest Becker and perhaps HoL as a whole--I'm not saying I agree). They have merely the moment they live in--no future, no past, because they do not contemplate such things. With that understanding, I'd like to quickly dip into both my theories:

Zampano's cats: I had this theory my first read-through of the book, and it still seems to ring true. Following the "every word serves a purpose" line of thought about HoL, note the fact that nearly every time Z's cats are mentioned, it is prefaced by "eighty-some" or "over eighty" or a similar term. Strange that MZD felt such a need to emphasize the number of Zampano's cats, right? Now, look at the first sentence of page xiv of the introduction, where Lude states, regarding Zampano, "<u>Eighty fucking years old</u>, alone in that pisshole..." [Emphasis mine] Now look at foot/endnote 82 (page 77 specifically), where JT, in a high/drunk daze, is rambling about Zampano's cats: "So many shades slinking out from under that dusty place </u>like years, his years... years and years of them</u>, always rubbing up against his legs... static announcements that... they are still there, disconnected but vital, the way memories reveal their life by simply appearing..." [Emphasis mine, sections edited out for brevity and to keep tangents from blurring my intent in placing this quote] For whatever rhyme or reason, I think the eighty-some/over eighty cats that seemed to only exist when Zampano was around each represent a year in the old man's life. It seems strange, but the numbers correlate, and JT's endnote certainly hints at the idea. And if we take animals as beings only existing for a short time and unconcerned for the distant past or future, we can kind of understand how each cat is the personification (animalification?) of one short year in the old man's long life, and when he went for his walks, they would commune with him. Perhaps Zampano would remember different parts of his life as he walked--the cats rubbing against his legs--and that is why he so often went out in the courtyard--to relive his past, as he had very little in the present. As Zampano came close to dying, the cats began to disappear (note they didn't all die at once--they slowly began to disappear months before Z's death, according to page xv). This could represent Zampano's steady decline into senility, as happens with most elders; slowly the years of his life faded away as he could no longer remember them (for, besides his memories, what else remained of his past?). Some just faded out, some were brutalized (perhaps symbolizing memories that Zampano forced himself to forget, and thus destroyed?), but they were all gone by the time the old man died. I'm not sure what the point to the animalification of Zampano's past is or what the deeper symbolism to it is, but I thought I'd bring it up.

The second theory is much shorter (lucky you images/smiles/icon_wink.gif ). It simply deals with the content of chapter VI, which seems unaddressed both in Hol and this board (which, granted, I've only read 75-80% of, so I might have missed it). This is the chapter prefaced by the Ernest Becker quote I stated earlier, and deals with Hillary and Mallory running into the hallway and ending up in the backyard. It's interesting to note that this is the only chapter where, instead of footnotes, there are endnotes, which I think supports my theory that animals represent a live-in-the-moment sort of consciousness--the story of Hillary and Mallory isn't directly interrupted by the intellectual dissection of the story, but instead the human contemplation of such things is put on the next page, so that Hillary and Mallory's story can simply continue from word to word with no thought of intellectualism.

Anywhoo, my question and posed answer are this: Why were Hillary and Mallory "rejected" by the house? Why did their foray into the hallway simply end up with them outside?

I figure that if, as has many a time been suggested, the house is created by the minds and scarred psyches of those inside it, and the halls shift in response to those people... perhaps, for animals, who, in the world of the novel, anyhow, have no thought for anything but instinct, no past to scar them, no future to worry about... perhaps their psyches are so clear that they HAVE no house in their mind. They have no dark mental labyrinths with minotaurs of secrets and repressed memory. They simply act according to inbred impulses, and, thus, do not create any halls for themselves. That's just my take, and I'm not sure if it makes much sense to anyone, including me, but I thought I'd put it out there.

Kimba

[drone]

Re: the porn star (Johnnie - now that can't have been a chance naming, can it?). I think there's a connection between her and the monster Johnny sees on p70. Maybe it's just the red eyes & claws that link them for me, I don't know. Of course, the Mother of All Strays could just be P. appearing in Johnny's head again, in one of her many guises.

As regards the idea of Zampano creating the monster by belief, Flann O' Brien wrote about an author who physically created characters rather than just putting them down on paper. Flann also wrote one of the first books (as far as I know) which contains an entire sub-plot written in footnotes, and this suggests to me that Mark has read at least some of the man's work. In other words, it's possible that Zampano did create living characters (á la Mr O'Brien's Author), as HoL tends to reference a lot of other books. As an aside, am I right in thinking that nobody's commented on the similarities between HoL and Moby Dick?

[alchemist]

A comment on the meaning of Z's cats: Z expresses his dependency of women, his pleasure of listening to a feminine voice. Indeed, all his readers are women. Cats are of old a symbol of the feminine. I think this is nowhere bether than in the old norse myths; the animal of Frey is a lynx. She roams the woods in a skin of this cat-creature. Maybe the cats is a reminder of the women in Z's past. Or Johnnys.

[ManiKatt]

Might be relevant...
Remember in the introduction pg. xiii Johnny writes when talking about the paramedics coming for Zampono
"Still, this was better than the prostitute the paramedics had seen earlier that day. She had been torn to peices in a hotel room, parts of her used to paint the walls and cieling red. Compared the that, this almost seemed pleasant."

[drone]

Also in the intro, Johnny fantasises about Thumper & Clara English having a "cat fight". Whatever else the cats may symbolise, it's probably safe to assume that they represent femininity.

[darret]

I am of the opinion that all of you are over-analyzing the whole cat thing.

It really bothered me when I first read the book that Mark never explained why the cats all left. Then I realized that it's possible that the cats represent Zampano himself. This may sound overly simplistic at first, but the fact remains that the cats were there when Zampano was there, and left when he died. This leads me to believe that the cats were a physical manifestation of Zampano's internal self. The courtyard was overrun with cats the way that Zampano's life and apartment were overrun with the House's story. Zampano's death meant his subsequent release from the grip that the story had on his life. Perhaps this is symbolized by the release of the grip that the cats held on the courtyard.


More later.

[markb]

The animals,Hillary and Mallory.Mallory was the climber who supposedly reached the summit of Everest before the New Zealander,Hillary. The 'House',and Everest - 2 vast and sl.scary places.

[urbangal]

even employed I finished this book in one week. amazingly i didn't lose my job becuase i had my nose in the book for the entire week. It kind of made me want to leave work and curl up in bed, but the electric, cable, phone and gas wouldn't have stayed on...

[bobthepoet]

I'm in agreement with Darret here, this whole cat thing is really being over analyzed. I mean, yes, there is definitly something going on with these cats, but of what I've read here, everybody seems to be grasping at straws. Stephen King (at least in Hol) points out that the whale in "Moby Dick" is a great symbol, and can mean alot of different things, but it is still just a whale.
Something else, that Kimba pointed out that I thought was interesting. In her second (shorter) theory, she discusses the animals imperviousness to the house. What she says makes a lot of sense, but, any more thoughts on this?

[Twix]

Not much to add to the animal discussion, just wanted to let everyone know I'm still alive (I moved into college and my Ethernet hasn't been running :P), and back on the board now.

Oh, and I wanted to clear things up a bit--though I know the name is effeminate-sounding, I, the magical, mysterious Kimba, am a guy. images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Kimba

[bobthepoet]

Kimba, I'm a jerk.

[Twix]

Hey, it's no problem. My girlfriend told me that people'd make that mistake when I chose this as my nickname. images/smiles/icon_wink.gif No biggie.

Kimba

[tarynbeth]

I really liked Vespa and Kimba's theories on the cats. And the porn star.

I think my original thoughts on the subject were much sipler: I assumed that the cats were Zampano's totem animal. The concept of individuals having "totem" animals which either protect or represent them exists in many different religions and philosophies. I know that Wiccan and other Pagan religions, as well as some Asian religions, although I would have to get out class notes from two years ago to pinpoint exactly which. Egyptians thought of cats in much the same way as many followers of Hindu regard cows.
So when the cats start dying, I thought: "Ah! Symbolism!" and that's about it. Fairly similar to Kimba's use of the word "animalification".

[DarkAngel]

Thanks Grendella - Good to have a discussion like this back at the top of the pile. Especially with this Battle of the Search Function going on.
I think cats are Mysterious (with a capital "M") and even the most scientific/practical/non-mystical amongst us would surely agree that they're (small m) mysterious.
As for the over-analysis, yeah, maybe we do go off on one once in a while, but it's how individuals choose to view it; it makes for great reading whether you agree or not.
Why do the cats disappear? Why do cats do anything?! Maybe they leave because Zampano's not around to fuss/feed them, you know how fickle cats can be!
But personally I like the idea that they drift away like Zampano's dwindling years. Do I agree with it? I'm not sure, probably, but either way up it's a great image.

[eurotrashkitty]

is it really possible to over-analyse anything about hol? i donn't think so images/smiles/icon_smile.gif i think that's what gives it its life and these infinite avenues of possibilities and new thought. how many new theories have branched from tangents and «over-analysing» as you call it. i, for one, am a huge fan of dissecting and dissecting til there is nothing left.

about hillary and mallory. someone mentioned the question earlier about why they land on the outside of the house instead of in the hallway. i have a bit of a theory on that. but also more questions. regarding animals in this chapter, the author (whoever that may be) seems indifferent towards them. that quote kinda makes me think that this becker never had any pets of his own...but in this line of thinking, the cats are incapable of perceiving the HOUSE house. that is why they come out outside instead of in the hallway. if you subscribe to this theory that would mean that there is no physical house (in blue, for emphasis), but it is all the dark chambers of the mind. yeah, yeah. we've all heard it before. but this could be proof!!

now for my question. why the seeming indifference to animals in this chapter and the apparent affection for them in other chapters? i mean, i think zampanò was really a fan of his kitty kitties. i suppose just as well the other animals aren't named for the most part and are referred to only as «the cats» and «the pekignese» (unless i'm mistaken...did he have a name?). am i just rambling?

[fatwoul]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DarkAngel:
I think cats are Mysterious (with a capital "M")...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The egyptians certainly thought so.

How many lives does a cat have? 9 right?

As FQ once said:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FallinqQuarters:
navy green chad
daisy tom reston
holloway wax jed

nine lives<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To which the reply appeared:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>p391 - Navy's letter to Karen:
"...<strike>Hansen and Latigo and PFC
Miserette, Benton and Carl and Regio and 1st
lieutenant Nackleband and of course Zips</strike>
and now I can't get Delial out of my head..."

Another 9 lives - the only one that isn't crossed out is the last one; Delial.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[cheshirecat]

for shame! no one has realized the time signifigance of this whole thing!! cats have been in forever! the egyptians worshiped the ground they walked on, the black plauge was a large result of killing so many cats that had previously eaten all the rats that carried the fleas. cats are linked to the home and to women as a result because of their domestication (does anyone else see this as odd that Zampano is not only single but disregards their invitations as well?)
Claws, this is another thing that has been brought up with the porno hag that kills the snotty dog, long nails, dogs also have nails for all those who have forgoten, all these things with penetrating claws seem to leave a mark and then dissapear (the monster included)

as for the killing of the animals, its quite dark when you think of it, killing things in general, things being killed. mutilation especialy, not only is killing something not enough, now we must disgrace its corpse to the best of our ability. no im not going anywhere with this, someone pick up on it

about the cats being rejected, somehow that part has sliped my mind, but it does remind me of how Chad was found in the tree and all, how can the house reject these things at will, as well as Navy and Karen in the end, possibly because it finds no need for them, but why?

[DarkAngel]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cheshirecat:
cats are linked to the home and to women as a result because of their domestication <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, but cats are never really domesticated in the way that dogs are. They might enjoy our company and use us for food, warmth, etc, but they don't rely on us as such. In a tenuous way, a reflection of the House. Navy and family inhabit the same space that the House is in, but are never really in control of it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cheshirecat:
how can the house reject these things at will, as well as Navy and Karen in the end, possibly because it finds no need for them, but why?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you go with the idea that the House exists in order for self-discovery (and I wish I was good enough to be able to add a link in here, but I'm still learning!) that it takes away the external until only the self remains, then it's perfectly rational to see that the House has no need for its inhabitants. Cats are very self-aware, you only have to watch them move to see that they know exactly where they are at all times. Chad is rejected because, as a child, he has not yet been weighed down by the thousands of external influences the world has, and is therefore self-aware by due of the fact that he is less aware of the world. And eventually it releases Navy and Karen because it has (rather violently) forced them to undergo this self examination and find what's important in themselves, not others or the world at large.

Maybe this is taking an idea an running blindly with it, but it seems to make sense when you accept the original premise. And if you enjoy over-analysis, Cheshirecat, then you might have enjoyed that? Hope so!

[ March 11, 2003: Message edited by: DarkAngel ]

[ March 11, 2003: Message edited by: DarkAngel ]

[therm]

Kimba, I agree ith your first theory, hoever, I took the cats in the courtyard as physical manifestations of his memories. Check page 77. The theme of memories popping up randomly is brought up several time. I dunno, any opinions on the subject?

Also, the Pekinese is a dog.

[Carnival]

(hi, first post)

I have no idea if this is relevent or not - but someone mentioned early on in this thread about "80" being used often in reference to the cats and to Zampano himself. I study Tantric Numerology - and the number "8" signifies infinity. (there is no "zero" in Tantric Numerology except with the #10).

I don't know if this means anything - but it "might" parallel the house. The house is an infinite number of years old - perhaps Zampano was an infinite number of years old - older than the actual age of "80." This also, then, may add to the theory of cats representing femininity. If the House represents the feminine - being "vaginal" in nature and the House is made up of infinite space and infinite age - then using the number 8 to reference the cats might be a nice secretive way of aligning the two representations of the feminine.

[snowraith]

Personally I think you are trying to hard to find something in that, but hey, that is my opinion.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Carnival:
...perhaps Zampano was an infinite number of years old - older than the actual age of "80."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Little contradiction here. Zampano died, therefor cannot be "infinite" any way you slice it.

[Carnival]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by snowraith:
Personally I think you are trying to hard to find something in that, but hey, that is my opinion.



Little contradiction here. Zampano died, therefor cannot be "infinite" any way you slice it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe - but maybe not. It has been suggested that P. wrote the book and that Z. was just one of her personalities. If this is so then he can't really "die" because he was never really "born."

But I don't think P. wrote the book - so I have to agree with you.

[Debger]

I've just finished reading HoL and I'm suprised no one mentioned the scratch Johnny found on his neck after hallucinating about being attacked by a beast of sorts. I immediatly thought this scratch was related to the scratch on the floor in Zampano's room. As well, the cats in the courtyard weren't just killed they were mutilated. I was waiting for more involvement of a "beast" but it never happened. Does anyone else see this connection?

[snowraith]

Your new here, but before you say,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Debger:
no one mentioned<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

,I think you should check the search function. It will save you a lot of hassle and flaming from established board members.